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A Liveaboard Mooring Yes Or No?

All liveaboard related posts.
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Dances With Otters
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A Liveaboard Mooring Yes Or No?

Post by Dances With Otters » November 28th, 2017, 11:40 am

One of the biggest issues that really seems to come up again and again with anti-liveaboard views is why so many continuous cruisers don't want to have a permanent mooring.
As a continuous cruiser myself I have travelled the waters for four seasons now and the idea has never appealed to me at all. However, having said that I am now beginning to warm to the idea.
A lot of folks seem to be resentful to continuous cruisers as they are often referred to as deliberately avoiding mooring fees which really is nonsense as liveaboards are on the boat all the time and a mooring is for people really to be able to leave their vessel.
If people were leaving their vessels all over the place and then going off, then they would have a point.
I personally think that in some cases people are really screwed with their mooring fees as your boat floats in tidal waters and effectively you are paying for the privilege of tying a bow and stern rope to a wooden post or cleat and having foot access.
In addition, I fail to see how any person can be so judgemental against continuous cruisers when they use BA moorings when they have paid their tolls.
Finally, when it is apparently so difficult for boatyards and marinas to get planning permission for liveaboards then you can not really blame liveaboards. The while waterways of the planet are full of liveaboards from scruffy piles of **** to million pound yachts, just like the residential suburbs of any country.
What people decide to do on their boat in of no concern of anyone at all as long as that boat is safe and has paid it's fiscal fees. The notion that someone needs planning permission is really overstepping the boundaries of people's freedoms.
If people really want to stop liveaboards on boats on the Norfolk Broads? Then that would mean that the hire boat industry would have to disappear overnight as if you stay on a boat, then you are living on it. It would also mean that nobody would be able to stay on their private boat overnight anymore.
When does someone become a liveaboard?
Where is the threshold?
One night, a week, 28 days?
If you spend a night in a house, then you have lived in it. If you spend a week in a house then you have lived in it.
So if you spend a night on your boat, guess what you are being a liveaboard.
So really at the end of the day, the solution to liveaboard discrimination is to do away with the pseudo planning permission regulations for marinas and boatyards etc and learn to accept the fact that if you spend a night on your boat at any given time?....then guess what?
You are living aboard.


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Re: A Liveaboard Mooring Yes Or No?

Post by Waylander » November 28th, 2017, 2:29 pm

As I've said in a previous post, I don't want to live in a marina. The fact that I can't afford to also helps. But I don't like settling down or being fixed or tied to one place. Ok, I can go out in my boat I don't have to stay in the marina. But if im paying for a berth when I'm out and about I will still be paying for that berth. I've never really been settled in a house and I've rented a few when I was in military, I suspect my " wanderlust" has come from being in the military for 24yrs and never being in any place or one base for more than 3 yrs and in my case I was away on detachments over seas a lot so have never really settled down. But to me the idea of being in a marina frankly scares me, I would have to mix with lots of people and people would get to know me and eventually find out that I'm a mechanical wizard and then they will ask for my help and because I always help people I feel obligated to help them then I get asked for more help and if I say "no" I get moans that I helped such and such and it slowly snowballs and I will always end up p****ng somone off and then I feel uncomfortable. I tried a marina for a bit, I couldn't really afford it so swapped my fees for working in the marina but that buggered my back up more so I ended up in bed depressed and not eating and generally hiding from everyone then I was becoming a problem for the marina as I was ill and it was winter etc etc.... For me, a marina is my hell!!! But I can see that a marina would be a good idea for some people that have jobs and families to care for. It's just not for me.
I may have this wrong but isn't the whole point of a marina having a residential status is just so they can have bins collected by the council and to allow people to claim social services and to vote and have a mailing address?
I read somewhere that the Broads Authority ain't too bothered about people living on their boats because the boat is there, at its mooring or not all year round if somone chooses to live on the boat then that is their choice, the boat is still a boat and it's still on the mooring or rivers paying its mooring fees or its tolls. The mooring fee is collected by the yard owner who is paying rates and council tax for the area that they own so the boat owner is paying towards that council tax for the entire area so the boat owner doesn't pay council tax as such because it is in a marina that is and its annual berthing fee goes towards the whole council tax for the land that the yard/marina is occupying. I do know people that are paying council tax while being resident on their boat, in a marina but this is so they are eligible for income support. I'm not sure how this works or why seeing as they are also paying an annual mooring fee for their berth. Maybe I'm not understanding it right. Maybe I'm wrong. Living aboard your boat for a couple of weeks or a month or a year doesn't change the boat in any way and it is still having its mooring paid for by the owner.... It's still a boat floating on the water that is free but you are paying for the ropes to the posts and the right to set foot on the land at that point and keep maybe a car in a car park. So really the only people that could object to liveaboards is the marina owners and only on the grounds that the boat owner may be generating more rubbish that the marina pays to get collected and the car is taking up space in the car park all the time. In an ideal world that would be it and it would be up to the boat owner to negotiate with the marina the status of himself. I can't really see the difference that living on the boat creates. It's still a boat and it's still tied in the marina for which the berth has been paid for and the boat is tolled, insured and BSS'd so nothing has changed apart from the owner is spending a lot of time on the boat but it is still a boat! If the owner ran the boat aground on a high tide at Breydon and put legs down and built a quay them that would be changing the boat and it's environment to a residential status. If you disabled your boat engine and chopped the mast off and was tied up to a bank and couldn't physically move because you have knocked a hole in the hull so it has sunk and you built a quay and sheds on the land them I can see that would be a problem as it is no longer a floating boat and it has become a fixed point and is being lived on. But it would be the landowners problem and something for him to negotiate with the now permanent resident. Maybe I'm naive in not really understanding why it's a problem to live on a boat....I know that canal people have the same issues and I also know of proper gypsys in proper tinker caravans with canvas roofs and horse drawn too, they are no longer " allowed" to pitch up in their wild areas in Cumbria or Scottish Borders as they are seen to be a problem and they get rounded up and put in homes that they have to pay for so that they are " conforming" in the eyes of the rest of society! It's the same as for live aboards.... People think they are getting something for nothing and think they should be made to be like everyone else. We should be paying for our right to live on a boat. We do as we know, tolls, insurance boat safety etc and if we have a mooring a mooring annual fee! We pay for our boat and for us that move around we are also spending money in which ever community we are in so that is boosting the economy in that area.

In my personal case. If I'm hounded off the river and not allowed to live in my boat, I will be homeless! This means I will be claiming benefits and either living on the streets or getting housing benefit so I can live in a house. I could get a job, but how many employers have places for 45% disabled bomb techs.... I'm HGV qualified but can't pass my medical, I can't stand on my feet all day, I can't shelf stack, I'm doorman qualified but that's out too as its standing and occasionally physical. Driving diggers involves getting in and out so can lead to me having problems and as soon as I mention my back injury most employers won't touch me and by law I have to mention it. See my point? For myself personally I have chosen a way to live that has least impact on the surrounding community and the on the social services that are financed by the local comunities. I do know that some people are claiming social services and they live in a boat with no job or means of support.... But that's their choice. I for one don't want to be a drain on society and am choosing the path of least problems for society and for me. I don't really have a choice in the matter. The only choice is marina or not. I choose not for all the afore mentioned reasons. In main though financial and phsycologically- I don't want to feel trapped in a marina. But that's just me!
Let the world flood! I live on a boat! :lol:

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Re: A Liveaboard Mooring Yes Or No?

Post by Dances With Otters » November 28th, 2017, 3:38 pm

Thank you for sharing your view.
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Re: A Liveaboard Mooring Yes Or No?

Post by Waylander » November 28th, 2017, 3:46 pm

You're welcome.
Let the world flood! I live on a boat! :lol:

Jonesy

Re: A Liveaboard Mooring Yes Or No?

Post by Jonesy » November 28th, 2017, 10:37 pm

Waylander

Its not you that is the problem just the sad fact of life that the worst elements of any sector get all the publicity and everyone else gets tarred with the same brush, there is nothing wrong with being a livaboard its the perception created by some thats the problem, the reason there is no issue with residential livaboards is because it is generally accepted that they either stick to the rules or risk eviction whereas unfortunately continuous cruisers are looked on in much the same way as the traveling community and while many are law abiding citizens who just want to get on with their lives there are enough who cause problems for the sector to be looked on with suspicion and caution, the problem is not the lifestyle its the legal system that is at fault, anyone who has knowledge or experience of trying to deal with squatters or trespassers will know how difficult and expensive it is to take action to get them evicted therefore landowners be they private or local authority will take what ever action they can to prevent the situation arising in the first place and while I can fully understand your feelings as an independent observer I can also see it from the landowners point of view, without looking back I think you said they allowed 5 days before asking you to move, that dosn`t seem unreasonable given what I have said above, I think you will find the majority of people dont have a problem with livaboards in general only with those that abuse the system, unfortunately there are those on both sides who are antagonistic enough to cause problems for everyone.

With regard to rates/council tax it is quite simple with a permanent residential mooring you pay council tax as with any other form of residence, if you lease a normal mooring part of your fee will be allocated to the company`s business rate a standard practice with all forms of business overheads and has nothing to do with the ability to claim benefit nor refuse collection as all waste collected from a commercial site is paid for by the business as commercial waste.

I hope this helps to put things into some sort of perspective and take away the them and us persecution issues that seem to abound

Rick H

Re: A Liveaboard Mooring Yes Or No?

Post by Rick H » November 28th, 2017, 11:37 pm

An excellent post I agree In all aspect's , its funny well actually its not funny really but the stigma regarding those that live afloat is much more real in Norfolk than anywhere iv been on the canals an I did tour most of it on a 2 yr cruise , hear in Norfolk there just seams to be a huge amount of anti live afloat feeling , that said it is in the minority by boy does it make sure its voice is heard .what really annoys me is the grouping together of everyone that really hacks me off but I do realise that those that do that are showing not just an appalling level of decency but an appalling level of intelligence too , so these days I humour them as really to me at the age they are ie mostly 50 + and they don't know that there is right and wrong in all forms of life then I recon its me that needs to feel sorry for them .
Oh n quite right about the council tax bit etc iv lost count how many times I've had to explain it over the yrs .

Jonesy

Re: A Liveaboard Mooring Yes Or No?

Post by Jonesy » November 29th, 2017, 8:28 am

Rickh

I think you will find the answer to why it seems a bigger problem in Norfolk is quite simple and lies in the demographic of the area, firstly the amount of available mooring both formal and informal is much less on the broads no towpaths etc and being a closed system individuals are more conspicuous and easily recognized so their impact on the system is more visible, on the majority of other waterways it is easy to move to new areas, secondly the majority of the broads area is owned by a relatively small number of families and businesses and the majority of private owners are condensed into a few large marinas so word of mouth gets around very quickly, I am sure within your preferred area you know which privately owned boats are a problem be the owners leisure boaters or livaboards and the ones that don`t interfere with any one else and are therefore largely inconspicuous, hirers are a different part of the equation altogether and while having their own impact are not really part of this debate.

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Re: A Liveaboard Mooring Yes Or No?

Post by Dances With Otters » November 29th, 2017, 9:01 am

If people can not make money out of you, then you are liability and not an asset.


Well, I think the hirers do actually come under the liveaboard subject.
I know a family who hire twice a year, April and October. When it's a bit more civilised.
Each time they hire for 3 weeks. That's 6 weeks a year they are living on a boat just as an example.
The hire boat industry runs more or less from April to October give or take a few winter hirers like Herbert Woods.
That means their hire boat fleets have people living on their boats non stop for at least 7 to 8 months of the year.
It means their hundreds and hundreds of hire boats have people living on them constantly for two thirds of the year.
These enormous fleets are moored on BA moorings and wild moorings constantly except for the brief periods of time that they return to their home moorings for changeovers, otherwise they are out on the waterways all of the time with people living on them.
So my questions to all readers is this, when is a liveaboard a liveaboard?
How foolish people are for discriminating against continuous cruisers whilst all along the hire boat economic structure is totally formed and dependent on it.
The only difference with a private continuous cruiser is that no great corporation is making huge amounts of money from it, whether it be the Broads Authority or a hire boat giant.

I can hear the penny finally drop now in many readers. :roll:
You see, it's not just about people's attitudes and mindsets as it is also down to money.
If people can not make money out of you, then you are a liability and not an asset.
A private continuous cruiser does exactly the small thing as a hire boat yet I wonder how many hire boats will be kicked off Ranworth Broad this year. ;)
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Jonesy

Re: A Liveaboard Mooring Yes Or No?

Post by Jonesy » November 29th, 2017, 8:17 pm

High Seas (Miles)

I am not sure if you are just being argumentative or actually believe that statement, it is generally accepted across all the boating communities that the term livaboard relates to someone who`s main residence is their boat and therefore they mainly live afloat, I own and live in a house therefore that is my main residence and where I live when I am on holiday I am staying somewhere temporarily be it on my own boat or somewhere I rent for a short period of time I don`t live there it is a subtle difference maybe to subtle but none the less different, in respect to the place in question ie Malthouse Broad the owners know that hirers or leisure owners are only going to stay for a day or two before either moving on in the case of hirers or private owners returning to their own mooring a totally different proposition to those people who permanently reside on their boats and could and sometimes do stay for extended periods in one location, trying to manipulate the facts or the system is one of the things that does no one any favours in particular your fellow livaboards, it is what puts the general publics back up and makes them suspicious of livaboards in general.

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Re: A Liveaboard Mooring Yes Or No?

Post by Dances With Otters » November 29th, 2017, 8:50 pm

Well the definition of liveaboard is indeed the issue here and by referring to Wikipedia definition is not the full definition. Wikipedia was at one time edited by the general public.
Most words have not a definition but do in fact have definitions.
A simple word like, 'to' has more definitions than most people can comprehend.
The term liveaboard does not imply it is someone's primary residence at all. That is a fallacy. That is what Wikipedia states.
The English Oxford dictionary defines it as follows:
1 Designating a journey or holiday (especially a cruise or diving trip) which involves living aboard a ship or boat for a time.
2 Designating a boat equipped with facilities such as a kitchen, beds, etc., which enable people to live on board (either temporarily or permanently).

You see I am really glad you made your last post and I mean that with all due respect because it clearly shows that people don't generally have a clue at all as to what a liveaboard is.

As I have made quite clear in my previous posts, hire boats are just as much liveaboards as continuous cruisers, however, hire boats make money for giant hire boat corporations and private continuous cruisers don't.

There is no difference between a continuous cruiser and a hire boat.
They both are perfectly defined by the above quoted definition.
Both are liveaboards.
You see the words temporary and permanent are clearly used in the definition because time spent on a boat is not what defines a liveaboard, it is what facilities are available or used in that vessel.
trying to manipulate the facts or the system is one of the things that does no one any favours in particular your fellow livaboards, it is what puts the general publics back up and makes them suspicious of livaboards in general.
And that is total rubbish too.
What gets people's backs up is quoting true facts verbatim instead of just accepting arbitrary nonsense from people who don't know what they are talking about.
In your case I find it extremely difficult to consider you know anything about this subject at all when you repeatedly spell the word, 'liveaboard' wrong time after time. I don't mean that to be insulting and if you find it so? Then I do apologise but I am stating the facts.
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